An exclusive interview with guitarist Kurt Phillips about the early days of Witchkiller.
Kurt, Witchkiller was formed in 1981, by you and Bruce Goodman on guitars, Steve Batky on drums/vocals and John Russell Meharey (R. I. P.) on bass, do you still remember how did you get together and was Witchkiller the first outfit for all of you, that you were involved in?
A year later joined singer Joey Turrenne, who was replaced soon by Douglas Lang Adams (ex-Aceíum), how did they get in the picture? Was Douglas an experienced singer?
The story starts in Ottawa when my friend, Bob Moffatt, told me about a drummer and bass player that were looking for a guitar player and I might be the kind of guitar player they were looking for. I auditioned for Steve Batky (drums, vocals) and John Meharey (bass) at a rehearsal space out near the Ottawa airport and joined them as a trio.
When we started, we didn’t have a frontman. Steve was doing most of the singing from behind the drum kit and I didn’t prefer that. Even so, once we connected, we were sure we had something worth pursuing. As time went on, we found a frontman/vocalist, Joey Turrene, and another guitar player, Bruce Goodman. The band started as a mostly cover band unsure of its direction to a fully functioning musical unit doing covers but adding some original material. Our mutual love of creating music and a desire to be a part of the music scene in our own way, with our own music, in whatever shape that took, was our motivation to continue. The band became Witchkiller.
I had been in a bunch of other bands, a few with my close friend Gord Kirchin (Exalted Piledriver) who was really the person that got me into playing in bands in the first place. I don’t know if any of the other players were in previous bands.
As time went on, we knew that the line-up we had didn’t feel like it could go in the direction Steve and I, as bandleaders and primary songwriters, wanted to go. We parted on good terms with both Joey and Bruce with whom I remain in contact even today. When we saw Doug Adams singing at a club in Ottawa with the band Aceium from Toronto, we thought he was the right person for us. He was a great singer and frontman and played guitar as well although we mainly wanted him for his voice. It was helpful to have him on second guitar for a bit in some songs while I got up to speed. I knew that eventually I would be the only guitarist because that was the sound, we wanted to have. Doug had already played in a bunch of bands even at his age. ACEIUM were a really accomplished band and Doug had already done a bunch of demo recordings as well. We chatted him up and convinced him to throw in with us and move to Ottawa. That was when the original material really started to take over.
Did you start writing originals or were you mostly jamming on covers? How about your influences as a whole?
At the time I started with Steve and John they had some original music but it was pretty varied in terms of styles and well as some covers. We made some noise together and we began to focus more on a N.W.O.B.H.M. style for our original material. Influences were pretty much the same as other young bands from that era… Priest, Maiden, RIOT, SAXON, UFO, Black Sabbath, Queen…. so the original material started to reflect that.
Do you think, Ottawa’s live music scene flourished/started flourishing in the 1980s? What clubs/venues did start opening their doors for metalheads?
Well, Ottawa always had a great live music scene and right across the Ottawa River bridge is a town called Hull just 4 km’s away, a 10 minute drive at most. Between those two places there were a LOT of great places for hard rock / metal bands to play. Ottawa had Barrymore’s where Witchkiller did a two night stand supporting Exciter when Joey and Bruce were still in the band as well as Hoopers. In the outlying areas were Drummonds, The Strand and The White House. In Hull there was the Chaudiere Hotel which had the 2500 seat Rose Room upstairs and the Green Room below, that held perhaps 800-ish or more. There was also The British and The Papillion which always had great bands. And Ottawa closed down at 1:00 am, Hull stayed open until 2:00 or 3:00 am.
Would you say, that you and Exciter were pioneering the Ottawa metal scene? How about other Ottawa based bands?
Although we were definitely in there with Exciter as prominent and obviously Euro-Metal based bands, other bands like Baron, Havoc, and Druids Keep played some metal and hard rock material. Galleon was a top-draw band although they were a lot of covers and more hard rock but still had an influence. As well there was a really great progressive rock band called AVALON, doing stuff like STYX, Led Zeppelin, YES and a lot of their own original stuff. Again, not METAL Metal but still paving the way.
Then Annihilator would become the highest selling heavy metal act in the Canadian history…
Of course… there is no conversation about Ottawa and Metal Bands without Jeff Waters and Annihilator at the top of it. The success he achieved through a combination of incredible skill as a songwriter, guitarist/bassist and producer / engineer combined with his fierce and unrelenting drive is a blueprint to be admired for sure. Jeff told me once that he used to go out to the place we rehearsed by the Ottawa airport and listen through the walls, not sure if that’s true but I always get a laugh when I think about it! Then he moved out to Vancouver around the same time I returned to Victoria from Los Angeles and he recruited Dave Davis and Wayne Darley for Annihilator. Both of those guys were part of the scene here in Victoria I dropped into and I was really blown away by how incredibly talented both were. I can see why Jeff grabbbed them for his band! Dave and I run in the same circles here again, he is in a Judas Priest tribute called Rock City Riot with Duane who plays guitar in that band. I also see Wayne on occassion.
By the way, are you Senators fan?
Great question!!! I am a very rabid hockey fan first, Edmonton Oilers fan second, rest of Canadian hockey teams third so Yes! I am an Ottawa Senators fan of sorts. I haven’t lived in Ottawa since around 1984 so I don’t really have that allegiance. I do know that John Meharey (RIP) was a HUGE Senators fan!
Did all of you keep an eye on what’s going on in other parts of Canada (Montreal, Quebec, Toronto etc.) at this point?
All three of those cities are basically in a corridor with from Toronto to Ottawa with Montreal being 1 1/2 hours from Ottawa then on to Quebec City so everything was easily connected. Toronto was a city I was familiar with from a lot of bands we saw come from there. During my time on the road crew for Coney Hatch, I toured a lot with them through the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. Vancouver was also a place where news and tapes came from as it was a major Canadian city even back then although it was 3500kms away. So once we had pen-pals/tape-trading partners there, lots of stuff went back and forth. Of course, this was all pre-internet so it was a LOT of letter-writing with pen to paper and Canada Post mailing costs! But that was how it was in that era.
Three demos (Demo I – 1982, Demo II – 1983 and Demo 1984 – 1984) were released, can you tell us any details regarding these materials?
That is a question I get asked a lot and, strangely enough, I actually don’t have copies of them unfortunately so I can only offer general thoughts so please keep in mind accuracy is a bit wobbly. I believe that all of the demo’s were done with Ross Freeman (sp?) at his home studio in the basement of his parents home. Live drums were recorded there and I seem to think that guitars & bass were mostly recorded with a Tom Scholz Rockman and low-level tube amps with dirt pedals.
There is a demo from that time period with Doug singing on that lot of folks think is a Witchkiller demo but is actually an ACEIUM demo. We did incorporate some of those ACEIUM tracks into the Witchkiller live show. I am wondering if the 1984 demo was done after I have left that Steve did with John, Domenic, and Kevin? If that is correct I don’t know much about that demo except, amongst other possible songs, it had Fear The Dawn, a track Steve and I were co-writing before I departed, Lizzy Borden and Rage Of Angels which is not the same track I later did with the same title. Steve was aware I was writing a track with that title and he thought it was a great song title which, of course, is a book by Sidney Sheldon as well from 1980.
It was a lot of work to do recording for an inexperienced band but our determination carried us through and we learned a lot from it. I can say for myself that it was an amazing feeling to hear an idea develop from a spark in my brain to coming out speakers as a song. Very exhilarating, to be sure!
The demos were sent to Joe Primeau at Phase One Studios in Toronto prior to recording the Day Of The Saxons Metal Blade ep. He sent us notes back to tighten the songs up to the arrangements you hear on the album.
Is it correct, that latter demo included an unlisted fourth track, which is a radio commercial for Slayer’s Show No Mercy tour with special guests Witchkiller?
No, not that I am aware of.
Did the demos help a lot to make a name for the band? Were they heavily spreaded in the tapetrading/fanzine network? Would you say, that they aroused Brian Slagel’s interest, who offered you a spot on the Total Destruction compilation?
It is pretty hard to determine exactly how heavily spread throughout the Metal Tape-trade world our demo’s went although I did get a tremendous amount of fan mail requesting music and posters etc especially from Europe as well as the US. Our friend and Metal Fan / Fotographer Supreme Wayne William Archibald was a major force in helping spread our music throughout his world-wide legion of metal-heads and we can’t thank him enough. I do know for a fact that a person named ’Metal’ Mike Arwine was the person responsible for Brian Slagel getting the demo as I still have his correspondence ( I actually kept ALL of the letters I received!) telling me he got it to Brian. We did get a Metal Blade recording contract sent to us shortly thereafter so ’Yes’ Brian was greatly interested in Witchkiller.
Witchkiller did not appear on any compilation for Metal Blade prior to the release of ’Day Of The Saxons’. As I understand, D.O.T.S. was the first album that Metal Blade released which was not a compilation.
I was also very thrilled a few years back when I saw a Brian Slagel interview from 2020 with LOUDER magazine where he included Witchkiller ’Day Of The Saxons’on his ’11 Best Metal Blade Albums’. Here he suggested that, had we continued, we would have been huge. While I can’t say it is likely we would have achieved anything that lofty, it is nice to think we could have really made our mark had we been able to perservere longer. And, at the same time, sad we couldn’t, but there you have it, that’s life. As well, in that article he incorrectly names both myself as guitarist (he says John Dillabaugh) and Doug as singer (he names Domenic) so that’s a bit of a mis-statement. Other bands from the 11 were Armoured Saint, Fates Warning, Cirith Ungol, Amon Amarth, Cannibal Corpse, Slayer and, my personal favourite… RIOT/Fire Down Under so again, I feel D.O.T.S. is in pretty great company and reinforces my belief in continuing to believe in my songwriting going forward
Other bands on this material were still Slayer, Savage Grace, Bitch, Warlord, Demon Flight, Obsession, Pandemonium and Trouble… In your opinion, did the compilations have an important role back in those days?
To me, there is absolutely no doubt that compilation albums were vital to spreading the various styles of not only metal but and style of music, back then and now. Fans can be easily exposed to great selection of styles within a genre, figure out which ones they like and follow that rabbit hole down at their own pace.
At what point did join bassist Todd Pilon instead of John Russell Meharey and what was the reason of it?
John left the band prior to the recording. He was the best band-mate you could want, ready to do anything to help the band but he struggled to play the material that Steve and I were writing and that was holding us back. On a recommendation from Dan Beehler from Exciter, Todd Pilon joined us a few months before we recorded the album. We got to work rehearsing for the studio straight away. What’s amazingly bizarre is we never did a live show ever with the line-up from the album. Isn’t that crazy?
It seems, it was a temporary change, wasn’t it?
Yes, Todd rehearsed with us for the album, recorded the album and left within a few months after that. The band was in limbo after Doug was no longer with us. We were auditioning singers but we couldn’t find the right person.
In July 1983 you entered the Phase One Studios… were you prepared, when you started recording the Ep?
We were incredibly well-prepared! We corresponded a lot with producer Joe Primeau via mail sending him demo’s and he would send us back notes and thoughts. We had a few different ways to play most songs and tested them all in the studio to find the best arrangements, tempos and parts for each song. Joe was so great to work with as we were all totally inexperienced in working in such a top-notch studio as prestigious as Phase One. As well, engineer Tom Balint was crucial to the over-all vibe during the sessions. Joe had previously worked with Anvil and a couple of other metal / heavy rock acts so he was dialled in to our brand of music and at the same time was a pro who was able to guide us and get the best out of us. Of course, they needed metal names so they became Joe ’Pounder’ Primeau and Tom ’The Impaler’ Balint. A few years back when I still had my guitar shop here in Victoria, Tom stopped in out of the blue and we got to reminisce about the time in the studio. He said he is sure we had an additional track partially recorded from the session but wasn’t sure which song it might be!
Is it an invariably enjoyable piece of metal, very honest and proud?
Well, it is for sure as honest a recording as could be, and I am still proud of it. And I think it is fair to say that you wouldn’t be doing this interview with me after these last 40 years if lots of other people hadn’t found it enjoyable, right?
Did the 5 songs showcase here are some good quality NWOBHM-inspired heavy metal, especially the first two songs, Day of the Saxons and Riders of Doom? Do you agree with, that the title track is by far the most memorable with its chorus whose melody is also repeated by the guitars?
Well…… firstly Steve wrote the song ’Riders Of Doom’ and I personally find it one of the most fantastic metal songs that I know. I love listening to it, I still love playing it and I’ve done both a lot over the years. As for the title track ’Day Of The Saxons’, I can tell you this about that song as I wrote it. And I’m remembering the feeling of that time even while I am typing this interview right now. It was inspired in parts by RIOT’s Swords and Tequila, the Conan the Barbarian movie, from the scene where Thulsa Doom is high on the hillside and his army of men ride up beside him then pour down the hill, and, in a way, by the style of Judas Priests’ song ’Breaking the Law’. I wanted to write a song that made me feel the same way Swords and the movie scene did, mixed together, with the feel of Breaking The Law. It all started by figuring out the melody guitar line, then the chords, then the lyrics for the chorus, then the lyrics for the verses, put together the instrumental bridge and voila! No nonsense, straightforward, lean and mean with a catchy chorus.
To answer your question ’most memorable’, hmmm, that kind of puts me in a spot to comment on my own song in a way that compares it to the others on the ep. The best way to answer that is from the folks who buy the music…. the song ’Day Of The Saxons’ outsells every other song on the album combined according to the royalty statements and Brian Slagel demanded that ’Day Of The Saxons’ be the album title which originally was going to be ’Riders Of Doom’.
The vocals duties are handled very well…
That is true, hands down! Doug has quite a unique voice… I can’t think of another singer that has his style of tone. He could scream wickedly, had a mencing tone as needed and could sing quieter parts, really the whole package. Great pitch, too. He also was a great front-man for the band.
Do you think, that the NWOBHM musical influences are coupled with a more North American sound?
There is no doubt that the NWOBHM was the fount of our inspiration. Although I often hear Armoured Saint and OMEN amongst other bands as comparables I myself don’t hear that. Perhaps because I am the only guitar player and my style is quite economical, it is hard, in my mind to compare us to other bands that do have dual guitars where there are harmony guitars and two different lead styles. But if other folks hear that, I won’t lie, being in the same sentence as those two bands is an honour!
Did you gig a lot those times? Did you manage to do headliner shows or were you mostly opening act for bigger names?
We gigged a lot in clubs and bars as the only band, I can’t recall being a support act except earlier when we were a five piece with Bruce and Joey opening for Exciter at Barrymore’s in Ottawa.
How much support did you get from the label?
Metal Blade didn’t offer any support I am aware of except in their print advertising with other bands. Doug did tell me a few years back that when he was in Europe way back with Metallica (he was their head pyro designer for many,many years) they went into a record store somewhere in Europe and their was a couple of giant Witchkiller posters in the front window but I myself never saw or heard about that kind of promo. He also mentioned that Metallica had one of those giant posters in front entrance of their rehearsal facility. They were unaware that Doug was the singer in the foto which is quite surprising and humorus to me as he worked very closely with them for 20 years or so. It is true to say that by the time the album came out there wasn’t really a band together to make it worthwhile to put money into promoting so I definitely don’t fault Metal Blade for that.
As to the other bands you mentioned, I can’t really say that I was that exposed to them, I was much more into European bands.
You, Doug, Todd Pilon respectively, left the board… what happened?
Without getting too deep into the past it sort of played out like this. Immediately after the album was recorded Doug moved back to Toronto and joined a band called Reckless. We auditioned Mark Fretz and, man, could he sing! He was, at that time, having struggles in his life so he was only with us briefly for some rehearsals and promo shots. That didn’t pan out, Todd went to Toronto to join Doug leaving Steve and I. At this point it became clear to me that Steve and I had radically different ideas of where Witchkiller was going to go stylistically and that caused a huge fracture between Steve and myself. I left to join Savage Grace in Los Angeles on a recommendation from Brian Slagel to Chris Logue. Steve recruited John back, added Domenic and Kevin and went the way that they did which was in no way what I was envisioning Witchkiller to be. I got to play great gigs in Los Angeles with Savage Grace including opening for Slayer at The Country Club as well as playing at The Troubador amongst other shows. I then returned to Canada when I knew that Savage Grace was not the style of music I truly loved. I am grateful to Chris for the opportunities that he gave me and for the folks I met, especially Brian East and Mark Marshall who replaced me in the band when I left.
The band released a demo 1985 (Who Are We?)… were you familiar with these stuffs?
That was after I had left the band and, to be truthful, the song ’Who Are We’ is absolutely something I would never have been a part of under the Witchkiller name. I’m not saying it is good or bad just so outside of the style of writing to what I stood for as a Metal Band. You can hear what I mean when I say Steve wanted the band to be more commercial and, even now, I still hear a lot of people say ’That is NOT a Witchkiller song’!
Day of the Saxons, Riders of Doom and an untitled track…
I only recently heard about the ’Metallica’ Screaming Oiseau thing but haven’t heard the untitled track so if anyone has that and wants to send it to me, please do!!!!! Steamhammer licenced the Obsession / Witchkiller split ep from Metal Blade with their permission and we had no say in that.
Do you perhaps know, what led to the band’s demise in 1985? Did all of you remain in touch with each other later on?
What led to Witchkiller’s demise in 1984 was a combination of youthful stubborness, a lack of healthy conflict resolution mechanisms and a huge gap between Steve and myself as to the band direction going forward. Steve wanted the band to branch out into a much wider style of music than I was interested in doing. I was wanting to stay with our core sound, Steve wanted to do more commercial stuff more like Def Leppard and Queen, etc. As you can hear in ’Who We Are’. There was no possibility of concensus between us and I wasn’t interested in going down Steve’s path. I can appreciate Steve wanting to do the other styles of music which he later did with his band I,Napoleon but he could have just started a side band for that. I stay in touch with Todd Pilon still.
What made the guys to reform Witchkiller in 2012 and you to re-join in 2019?
We didn’t actually ‘reform’ in 2012. Around this time Oliver from Keep It True contacted me to see if there was a way to have the original Witchkiller line-up on their 2012 20th Anniversary stage, which was a mind-blowing opportunity to me. So, I opened up talks between Steve, John, and myself to see what might transpire. As far back as 2006 Bart Gabriel (from then DragonNight Agency) was wanting to get things going with a Witchkiller reunion. Bart offered to re-release the album and/or release the demo’s and either option could include new music if we so desired. It would be true to say that although it has always been a dream of mine to play in Europe, especially Germany, realistically I still considered it a long shot to make a reunion work but one does have to try, right? The main reason to restart the band was the opportunity to play at an established European Festival show, as well as an interest in having Bart release some of our back catalogue demo music, and the opportunity to get more shows.
After connecting with Steve and John, we tried to figure things out but a myriad of circumstances including incredibly busy lives, time, and distance were significant barriers. Steve was living in the US, John in Ottawa, and I was on Vancouver Island which is on the West Coast of Canada. The biggest hurdle was the ongoing difference of opinion as to who would be the singer. Steve was wanting to sing/front the band. Agreeing on the style of music we would play also created the largest obstacles that we were unable to resolve. Steve and John were wanting to do a Rammstein-ish Industrial down-tuned 7-string thing while I was and will always be squarely in the camp of the band’s core sound….. NWOBHM! As you can imagine again there was no middle ground for us to meet. I deeply regret telling the world we would do an album knowing as I did at the time that we had dramatically different opinions. With no way forward, I stepped aside and let them do their thing as I had other musical projects to pursue. Of course, as expected, nothing ever transpired from their camp.
Later down the line Bart and Oliver still wanted to have the original Witchkiller line-up from the ep play either the 2019 or 2020 festival. I still could not give up on playing in Europe so, despite my initial concerns, I relented, and this time caught up with Doug, Todd, and Steve again to see what might be possible. Although we all got together in 2017 for a few days to rehearse, it again turned into something that was not what it was supposed to be and, unfortunately, that collapsed as well. There was an agreed upon plan to get us there but in the end the others had their own ideas that had no possibility of success in my mind. I finally understood that my dream of Witchkiller returning was just that….. my dream… and no one else’s. I truly wish that it could have been realized because that would have been an incredibly special moment! And at the end of it all, we wouldn’t have been able to go anyway because Covid shut the world down…. You can’t make this stuff up, right? Total Spinal Tap!
Did you do some reunion shows?
Unfortunately, No, we did not.
Was in your mind to write brandnew Witchkiller material?
I’ve always continued writing NWOBHM / Witchkiller style metal songs because that is where my favourite metal comes from so that would be a ’Yes’. At the same time there is still some back catalogue songs that are truly vintage Witchkiller style that deserve to be considered. So, there is 12 or 15 tracks lying in wait!!!!
In 2021 a single… do you maybe remember this gig?
I have to do a Full Metal Fist shout-out to Laurent Ramadier, Snakepit Magazine and Cult-Metal Classic / Sonic Age Records for releasing that. Laurent has been an incredible supporter for such a long time, he did a huge Snakepit interview in 2007 with Steve, Todd and myself separately on Witchkiller that was part of revving up the possibility of Witchkiller resurfacing somehow, someway. As well, the foto’s on the single are all shot by Wayne William Archibald for full authenticity!
I can’t say I remember the exact gig but the set list was pretty standardized and only was switched around as needed. We LOVED playing in Quebec, they definitely had the fiercest metal fans, but the band had to be great or they would give you a really hard time!
The current status of the band is active… what can you tell us about the new members and your future plans?
For me, the Witchkiller flame has never faltered, never extinguished. Over the years, I always believed Witchkiller would return to the scene. To keep Witchkiller’s legacy alive motivated me to continue writing and playing the music, pursuing opportunities, responding to fans and requests for magazine and radio interviews about the band like your interview here. If an opportunity to talk about Witchkiller presents itself, I am there!
The question most asked is “when will Witchkiller play live.”
I always thought about what I would do when (not if!) this opportunity happened considering previous attempts to bring the original lineup together had been unsuccessful. My unwavering desire to play Witchkiller music live, especially in Europe, could not be put aside and was constantly on my mind.
As well a major impetus was the unflagging encouragement from my dear life-long friend, the late, great Gord Kirchin aka The Exalted Piledriver. He always encouraged me to resurrect Witchkiller no matter what.
So, in 2022 I saw a post on Facebook from James Delbridge, a young singer/guitarist from an Ottawa band called Lycanthro, that sealed the deal! After getting to know James, I knew he was going to be Witchkiller’s vocalist. From there James and I embarked on a crusade to resurrect Witchkiller together eventually adding Duane and Mike. We are all committed and authentic in our desire to honour Witchkiller’s Legacy…… Warriors in Armour one more time!
James is extremely familiar with the D.O.T.S. EP, as it was a formative part of the music he listened to when he was starting to play. He is thrilled to have the opportunity to front the band and will sing the material with the power and glory that dwells within him to that end!
Duane was already part of forging the additional material, written during my time in Witchkiller, and refined along with him. He has also played in a lot of other B.C. based metal / hard rock bands including the late Randy Rampage’s band (R.I.P.) who’s name you may recognize from Randy’s time fronting Annihilator. Duane’s love of Metal from that era bleeds his DNA into the mix of this new chapter!
Mike was easily the right choice to man the kit. He is an incredibly gifted and powerful drummer also steeped in the N.W.O.B.H.M. catalogue and, like all of us, this style of music is the music of his youth. To connect things together even more, Mike played on some previous song demos for me as well as having played with Duane in other Victoria bands.
Duane, Mike, and I all live near each other, and get together regularly to play with James fully involved through technology and regular visits. The thrill of playing music together has built a strong musical bond that reminds me of when we were kids rehearsing Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Scorpions, Accept and Black Sabbath, writing our own songs in basement jam spots, and then sharing the glory on nightclub stages.
It is as authentic as you could get! That ‘Cauldron of Purpose’ will yield the offering of our absolute best and true deliverance to the fans who have been waiting to hear the Witchkiller Thunder from the stage.
As there is a catalogue of unheard Witchkiller material we’ll be working towards releasing some of it, either as singles or ep’s due to the cost of recording a full album and the return on revenue in today’s economic climate. How and when will be determined by what happens after Headbangers Open Air 2025 and what opportunities come forward.
Kurt, thanks a lot for your answers, what are your closing words for our readers?
Dávid, you are most welcome and Thank You for having this chat together! Closing words?
Firstly, your family and friends need to be the most important thing in your life because community lifts us up the highest and there we find the most support, no matter what!
